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 Betreff des Beitrags: Hifidelio Burn-In Time?
BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 17:40 
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Hello,

Now that my HF is finally repaired and working fine :P I started testing it to check the audio performance.
I am using the HF connected in digital to my Marantz CDA-94 DAC playing FLAC files imported from my PC (the FLAC files are created using a Plextor CD drive in cobination with PlexTools with full error correction).

To my surprise the result produced by the HF when connected to the Marantz DAC is quite far behind from the result produced when I use my Marantz SA8400 player as transport (connected in digital to the same CDA-94 DAC). The sound of the HF lacks precision, definition, impact and transparence.
Now, I haven't had time yet to perform on the HF all upgrades I did on my CD player (I am planning to change the power cord, the digital cable and add a set of Brightstar Isonodes to the HF), however I was expecting a better result 'out-of-the-box' considering the fact that playback form the hard-disk should be as close as possible to perfection.

My question to the gurus of the forum is: how much burn-in time does the HF need before reaching its optimum performance? I do not want to test new cables and anti-vibration feet before I am sure that the HF is completely burned-in and the results are coherent.

Thank you for your help!


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 18:04 
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Are you arguing the Hifidelio changes some 1's to 0 and vice versa and will - after some time - stop doing that?
Or do you hope a better digital cable will change the "form" of the zero's and one's?
What would happen, if you read this forum through such a "better digital cable"? Will the articles appear more eloquent? The colors look brighter?

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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 18:10 
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Musikuss hat geschrieben:
Are you arguing the Hifidelio changes some 1's to 0 and vice versa and will - after some time - stop doing that?
Or do you hope a better digital cable will change the "form" of the zero's and one's?
What would happen, if you read this forum through such a "better digital cable"? Will the articles appear more eloquent? The colors look brighter?
:P :lol:

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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 18:12 
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Musikuss hat geschrieben:
Are you arguing the Hifidelio changes some 1's to 0 and vice versa and will - after some time - stop doing that?
Or do you hope a better digital cable will change the "form" of the zero's and one's?
What would happen, if you read this forum through such a "better digital cable"? Will the articles appear more eloquent? The colors look brighter?


No, jitter comes from clock synchronization issues, not from the fact that 1s become 0s, which should not be possible.
Jitter is the reason for which digital cables and digital transports sound different, and I know that better vibration control and better digital cables can make the HF sound better. However, in order to be able to chose the best solution, the HF needs to go past its burn-in time first so that its sound gets stabilized.

Do you know how much burn-in time the HF needs?


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 18:14 
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Do a (double) blind test with your equipment.
If you still can hear a difference between two digital sources connected to the same DAC and analog equipment, either your DAC has a problem (maybe it's over-sensitive to jitter), or the digital out of the hifidelio is somehow defective (maybe some of the LSBs get lost?).
My hifidelio doesn't flip any bits on the way from CD/HDD to the digital output -> no need for Anti-Vibration-Kits, Vodoo-like power-chords etc.

If you don't believe me (and I guess you won't), you should search for an appropriate Voodoo- (read: high-end) forum :D


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 18:21 
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amatala hat geschrieben:
Jitter is the reason for which digital cables and digital transports sound different

If that is the case, your DAC is VERY poorly designed.
Jitter can be reduced at the sink end (your DAC) with almost no effort to an absolute unaudible level.

My guess is that the companys developing "high-end" equipment do not like these cheap jitter-reduction circuits, because they would sell no high-end digital sources in the future, if nobody can hear a difference between a 30€ CD-Player and a "high-end"-one for more than 1000€.


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 20:33 
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Guys, I am not trying to start an argument here, I was only trying to put things in context. I do understand and respect your points of view as I hope you can respect mine. Being an I.T. guy myself I lived by the 'bits is bits' theory for a very long time, until I decided to do some listening tests myself. And then I switched to voodoo :lol: . My current opinions are based on extensive listening tests which I performed by myself or together with friends (during occult secret gatherings :lol: ) and they were not the subject of my question.

I was hoping that I could find be at least one person on this forum who believes in burn-in time for electronics. It is a scientific fact that new electronic components need some hours of burn-in time before they reach their best (no voodoo involved here :D ). I was just wondering if someone can help me with an estimation of the HF burn-in time. If not, I will try to determine it myself.

Have a nice evening everyone! :wink:


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 21:08 
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There are a lot of people who don’t hear the difference between a lossless format and lossy formats like MP3.
Everybody knows that the compression obtained by MP3 is due to removing information.
Removing information and hearing no audible differences, that’s what I call Voodoo.

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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 21:18 
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amatala hat geschrieben:
It is a scientific fact that new electronic components need some hours of burn-in time before they reach their best (no voodoo involved here :D ).

The funny thing is: Nobody ever would try to burn-in a different digital device but audio-players.
Have you ever heard of someone burning-in new computers, mobile phones, personal navigators, [insert your favourite gadget here]? Guess why.

Zitat:
until I decided to do some listening tests myself.

But not double blind tests, otherwise you would be cured.


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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 22:32 
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Ever heard of somebody listening to these devices?

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BeitragVerfasst: 06.12.2007 22:51 
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Amatala,

I have the HF for ¾ year.
I can’t say I have heard any improvement over time.
But as the HF is a computer with a soundcard of moderate quality it is by design not able to reproduce subtle details.
So don’t waste your money on cables etc.

Maybe this post is of interest: http://www.hifidelio-user.de/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

Of course it features the same high end bashing common in this forum but there is also some technical information which does make sence

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BeitragVerfasst: 07.12.2007 11:35 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
Amatala,

I have the HF for ¾ year.
I can’t say I have heard any improvement over time.
But as the HF is a computer with a soundcard of moderate quality it is by design not able to reproduce subtle details.
So don’t waste your money on cables etc.

Maybe this post is of interest: http://www.hifidelio-user.de/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

Of course it features the same high end bashing common in this forum but there is also some technical information which does make sence


Hi Vincent!

Thanks for the useful link. As I can see I am not the only one with vodoo ears who thinks that a CD player sound better than the HF when connected to an external DAC.
I naver considered the HF to be a high end device and as such I never planned on using its analogue outputs (internal DAC). I was hoping however that it would produce excellent results on the digital outputs when connected to an external DAC. This would allow me to rip most of my CDs in FLAC on the HF harddisk without quality loss and make some extra room in my library to store SACDs :wink: .

On the bright side, I did some extra tests with the HF and, to my surprise, the results where much better when connected with a 2 euro optical cable than when connected with a 40 euro coaxial cable... It seems that the HF favours the optical output, so my next step is to get a decent optical cable (something around 50 euro, not very expensive, but of decent quality) and continue my tests from there.

I will check with our friend on the other thread if he already compared coax vs optical.

Thanks again!


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BeitragVerfasst: 07.12.2007 11:51 
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Funny, in my case it is exactly the reverse
I connected the HF by coax and by toshlink to my DAC.
The coax sounds much better than the toshlink. The toshlink sounds more or less like the DAC of the HF

Then I connected my PC to the DAC using the USB. There is a small difference with the coax, the USB sounds slightly more transparent.
As a bonus, the interface of WMP is much better than the interface of the HF

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BeitragVerfasst: 07.12.2007 12:06 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
Funny, in my case it is exactly the reverse
I connected the HF by coax and by toshlink to my DAC.
The coax sounds much better than the toshlink. The toshlink sounds more or less like the DAC of the HF

Then I connected my PC to the DAC using the USB. There is a small difference with the coax, the USB sounds slightly more transparent.
As a bonus, the interface of WMP is much better than the interface of the HF


Well, no two systems are the same, so I will not try to explain this.
In my case it was quite obvious, even my wife said that they changed the singer when I switched from coax to optical. The voice became so much more natural that I got the impression that someone else was singing...
So you know how it works: if even the wife can hear it, the difference is really big... :lol:


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 Betreff des Beitrags: re break in time
BeitragVerfasst: 12.12.2007 00:47 
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I would like to pipe in here if I may ...I am a newbie in this forum and I hope to build a reasonably good music server ...Opus w/ mods
I agree w/ Amatala and Vincent one can hear the difference when a good component has had some current put through it ...burn in on GOOD equipment , if it is middle of the road stuff then don't expect too much .
as for the break in / burn in needed on a new HF ..in my case I will not expect anything really till the clock is changed for a better / lower jitter replacement
I have done this mod on my CD transport it was a HUGE difference from the simple 2 euro chip , then later I added a separate PS for it ..it is fed to my separate battery powered DAC ( quiet ) all is wonderful w/ redbook CD's here ...I just need to duplicate that w/ the Opus
I will be happy to share information here with this group
thanks
Bernard


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