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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 01:14 
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PietO hat geschrieben:
In most cases correct Gigi, but in some cases (e.g. elder home-brewed CD's RW) the CD-quality is becomes so bad, that the build-in error-correction mechanism can't correct all-errors. CD-players differ in performance in this area.

There's also an issue with caching CD-drives (e.g. the Toshiba model in Hifidelio devices has 2MB buffer memory). Since the Hifidelio is a Linux system it uses cdparanoia for audio extraction and this program isn't aware of caching techniques. This means that re-reading of erroneous sectors isn't suitable for error correction because the cache provides the same chunk of data over and over.

Further details (in German) here:
http://www.audiohq.de/index.php?showtop ... post&p=422

or here:
http://www.audiohq.de/index.php?showtop ... dpost&p=76

schim


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 09:14 
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The Hifidelio drive actually is a DVD reader and CD burner. Reading an audio CD is absolutely no challenge for the drive, the optical structures on a CD are many times bigger than those on a DVD (the main reason, why the DVD's capacity is about 6 times that of a CD on the same area). So, if you handle your CD's with care (and I believe high-enders do), there is little reason to believe, that error correction is an issue here. We have testet many CDs: The Hifidelio ripped them all bit-perfect, just like Gigi said.

1's and 0's don't "sound". As long as the bits don't toggle (1's become 0's or vice versa) the external DAC gets EXACTLY the same data, so it's not possible for to digital sources to sound differently if the DAC is jitter-immune.

This is what digital (and information) technology is all about: There are no "small differences", there is no noise and no distortion. Digital data is either right or wrong. Otherwise, computer technology as we know it wouln't be possible. While it might be tolerable that this text or a picture has small errors, it is not for software code. If only one bit changes in software code, the software usually crashes instead of behaving "just a little bit different".

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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 09:37 
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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
question why do some CD transports sound better than others ?

Once again:
They don't, as long as they use digital transmission and the same jitter immune DAC.

It's just a physical fact that you can't deny.

Ah, of course you could prove this fact wrong: Do a double blind test. Of course this will be time wasting, like trying to build a perpetuum mobile.


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 10:38 
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RonaldPR hat geschrieben:
Missing data on audio CDs are interpolated by error correction and can very well be different from the original digital source.

Interpolating is something that CD-Players do when Audio-CDs are not correctly readable. They are indeed checksums and error coreections codes on the Audio-CDs, and any CD-Player reads and verifies them. Only when they fail (because a CD has deeper scratches or similar), a CD-Player tries to
interpolate.
You want to read about an experiment about with reading CDs here: http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html
You see: Even lowest cost CD players have no problems at all to read Audio-CDs bit-perfect.

Interpolating does not happen with devices like the hifidelio or computer drives with ripping software - if they notify reading errors, they simply try to read again (and report and error if finally reading fails).


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 14:14 
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Zitat:
which is a Kusunoki style filterless battery operated unit

This is the DAC you're talking about?
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/convertus3_e.html

If it is: As far as I can see this one is not making use of the reclocking possibility of the CS8412
I couldn't find a reclocking DAC on the Kusunoki site either. (At least they are not mentioning it in the specs and it would certainly be a selling point..)

So, you're very sure you have a reclocking DAC? if not then modify that one. can't be so hard to do if it's using a CS8412 inside!


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 16:29 
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Musikuss hat geschrieben:
So, if you handle your CD's with care (and I believe high-enders do), there is little reason to believe, that error correction is an issue here. We have testet many CDs: The Hifidelio ripped them all bit-perfect, just like Gigi said.

I agree. Just wanted to point out that cdparanoia actually has a problem with caching CD-drives. If the CDs are in good condition I wouldn't care about it as well.

schim


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 19:24 
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gentlemen
you are very persistent in presenting your case that there is no difference in digital output ...1's & o's + a good DAC = good sound
therefore why would one need to spend a certain level of money to achieve this good sound ? Gigi would say one doesn't ....
I personally could have saved many thousands of dollars in my 'misguided ' quest to get great sound

I personally have owned many CD players and a few CD transports ....I would attest to the fact that in the majority of cases the higher the value the better the sound ....??? how is this piossible ? the snob / placebo affect ?
too bad you all live so far away from me I would LOVE to do some blind testing ...however just so happens that we have friends who are not audiophiles coming to stay with us tonight so I will imagine it is you good people there and we shall do some testing ....I will advise honestly and objectively of the results .

Fred this is my DAC http://ack-industries.com/
I have had the supposed class A Stereophile Benchmark ( terrible -dry ) , 3 Audio Note models ( wonderful in the midrange attenuated at the extremes until you hit the $5000 -10000 mid level models , top level I believe around $60K ) Music Fidelity ..acceptable till I heard the Ack 2.0


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 20:04 
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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
gentlemen
you are very persistent in presenting your case that there is no difference in digital output ...1's & o's + a good DAC = good sound

As I said before: That's is just physical fact you can't deny.
If you disagree, it's like saying "pictures taken with my digital camera look better at my (digital connected) TFT-display if I view them with my them with my new 5000$ apple computer than with my 5 year old windows PC."

Zitat:
I personally could have saved many thousands of dollars in my 'misguided ' quest to get great sound

No. There IS such a thing like a placebo-/snob-effect, and it obvioulsy works perfect for you. This is why you CAN here differences, and because you here them, your money is not wasted.

Don't worry, be happy and enjoy!


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 20:31 
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gigi hat geschrieben:
No. There IS such a thing like a placebo-/snob-effect, and it obvioulsy works perfect for you. This is why you CAN here differences, and because you here them, your money is not wasted.
Don't worry, be happy and enjoy!


Great: the best summary of the thread; many people believe in God / Allah and find evidence for this, others are just happy without any super-natural being and enjoy listening to their Hifidelio.

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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 21:46 
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Well, some believe in Allah, some believe in God and the beat(ting) goes on.

Beside, the placebo effect is very well documented so Gigi does have a point.

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Zuletzt geändert von Vincent am 01.02.2008 23:18, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 22:50 
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okay
as said I will do the blind testing on my friends tonight and will report the results ....

Don;t worry be happy is good advice and my motto as much as possible
have a good weekend


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 22:51 
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Just came across an interesting article about Jitter: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/368/index.html

Interesting enough, they used a CS8412 as a DAC receiver, which has no jitter-attenuation at all below 25kHz. It seems that a lot of DIY DACs, maybe also the very minimalistic "Kusunoki-style" DAC, uses this receiver.
If so, (and no additional jitter attenuation device is used) it's no wonder that this DAC is very sensitive to jitter issues.


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 22:52 
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ohh ...one more thing , I believe in ..................MUSIC !


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 23:41 
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gigi hat geschrieben:
Just came across an interesting article about Jitter: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/368/index.html


Thanks, this link is very interesting indeed.
What do you think about page 4, the jitter induced by wiring?
Can wiring have such a inpact?

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BeitragVerfasst: 02.02.2008 00:10 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
What do you think about page 4, the jitter induced by wiring? Can wiring have such a inpact?

I do believe that cables could have an impact to jitter transfer, but when it comes to the direction of a cable - well that's really hard to believe.

But I still don't understand if high-quality DACs don't have a high quality reclocking unit which are rejecting jitter to an inaudible level. I would call such a DAC broken; broken by design.


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