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BeitragVerfasst: 29.01.2008 22:17 
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well I have to wade in here ....
I have all the high end stuff in my system but wherever I could I tried it before I bought it ....some of it not expensive at all ..cables too Gigi
I know I can hear the difference w/ good sounding components ( my wife who has just good ears among her other attributes ...knows nothing of the costs associated with my hobby , so this mitigates the snob effect ...will come to the same conclusions soundwise as I ...good is good )
anyway I am at the point of deciding whether I will keep the HF / Olive or not as all tests done so far ...except for one have shown that the depth width and breadth of music was substantially less than my CD transport and outboard DAC .

I talked to several people who mod the HF , there are variations but one is common among all of them ...running it on DC ..batteries leaving the AC out of the equation and this may be the way to go if one is serious about getting rid of the noise and chop on the lines that are out of our control .


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BeitragVerfasst: 29.01.2008 22:43 
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Assuming your transport/DAC/HF all runs on AC I’m inclined to say that switching to DC on the HF won’t help you.
If transport+ DAC sounds different compared with HF + DAC and your DAC is not jitter immune, the difference might be caused by differences in jitter level between transport and HF.
Which one produces more jitter, only measurement can tell.
An experimental setup would be to compare the transport and the HF connected to the DAC by means of a high quality reclocker. This should eliminate differences in jitter from the source.

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BeitragVerfasst: 30.01.2008 00:00 
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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
I talked to several people who mod the HF , there are variations but one is common among all of them ...running it on DC ..batteries leaving the AC out of the equation and this may be the way to go if one is serious about getting rid of the noise and chop on the lines that are out of our control .

Aehm, don't know if I understood you correct here: They run the hifidelio with DC? If yes, tell me more: How did they do that? Where did they get 12V, 5V, 6V, -6V and 3.3V (not sure if i missed one) from what kind of batteries?

vincent hat geschrieben:
An experimental setup would be to compare the transport and the HF connected to the DAC by means of a high quality reclocker. This should eliminate differences in jitter from the source.

Agreed, but what i still haven't understand: It is a relatively simple task to build a "high quality reclocker". It is even simpler to intergrate such a thing to a high quality DAC. Why in the world are there DACs out there in the wild which are not jitter immune?


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BeitragVerfasst: 30.01.2008 00:35 
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Ask Vinnie Rossi: http://www.redwineaudio.com/Olive.html

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BeitragVerfasst: 30.01.2008 01:32 
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Vincent you said " An experimental setup would be to compare the transport and the HF connected to the DAC by means of a high quality reclocker. This should eliminate differences in jitter from the source.

do you mean something like this ?
http://www.akm.com/AppsNotes/Reclocker.htm
am not familiar w/ this unit ..is it for analyzing or is it used to remove jitter ?

as far as which of my components ( HF or transport ) is producing the most jitter ...its a pretty safe bet that its not the transport
this is why I had considered replacing the clock oscillator on the PCB in the HF as many of the pro modders offer ....Gigi points out as do others that this is a waste of money and point to documentation supporting this ...I do not know as much as I would like to about digital audio ...however if I have jitter that originates in the HF that is not dealt with by my battery DAC...... whereas the jitter that comes out of my CD transport is removed by the DAC to the point of being so far ahead in sound superiority as to be apparent by anyone who hears it ...
then this jitter has to be coming from somewhere
I really like the idea of the HF ...I want to love it ...but if it cannot recreate what I have already then it will be difficult to live w/ it .


Gigi as per your DC question please look at Vinnie Rossi's site as per Vincent's post and :
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merch ... t_Count=38


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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
...however if I have jitter that originates in the HF that is not dealt with by my battery DAC...... whereas the jitter that comes out of my CD transport is removed by the DAC to the point of being so far ahead in sound superiority as to be apparent by anyone who hears it ...


Sounds a bit dark to me, your DAC is input jitter immune or it is not. Can you clarify?

The way I see it.
Computer audio is here to stay.
Computer audio is about bit streams so clocks all over the place. In fact one big jitterbug waltz.
Digital transmission is about bit perfect transmission not about jitter.
So in the final stage, the DA conversion, the DAC should be able to cope with sources filled to the brim with jitter.

What is a music server?
A computer running Linux (most of the time), some DIY player software so buggy and a lousy sound card.

I own a HF with a 400 Gb hard disk. This set me back 1750,-
This money can buy you a iMac with a dual core Intel, 4 Gb mem and a 750 Gb hard disk.
You don’t have any performance issue, more disk space and a better design.
Run WMP11 and you have a better interface (GUI).
Superior in any aspect to what is offered as music servers and the same lousy sound quality.
Get your self a jitter immune outboard DAC and you have it all.

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BeitragVerfasst: 31.01.2008 14:13 
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Yep including introducing a heating device, extra environment noise including a screen\kbrd\mouse if you want to have an independent thingy .. :)

most easy and effective way to get away from all (..?) jitter problems is using an external HQ reclocking DAC I think.


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BeitragVerfasst: 31.01.2008 19:46 
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I did some listening tests yesterday with new music imported through the NW ...ripped with another good quality external CD drive & EAC
it was very much better than the results from using the HF drive
still not up to the quality of my independent transport but a large improvement ...as I said I run both signals through my external DAC
...♠which is a Kusunoki style filterless battery operated unit
the way this appears is that what I have now may be as good as possible ??
so the question is : to live with it as is ...or spend some more cash and try to squeeze a little more out of the HF ..?
ahh this hobby !


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BeitragVerfasst: 31.01.2008 22:28 
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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
..or spend some more cash and try to squeeze a little more out of the HF ..?
ahh this hobby !

No, as stated earlier:
The HF has a digital output which is bit perfect, like your CD transport.
If both sound different with your external DAC, your DAC is broken. Go and spend some money to buy A DAC which is jitter-immune or buy a reclocking unit.

Zitat:
ripped with another good quality external CD drive & EAC
it was very much better than the results from using the HF drive

I doubt that strongly. If your HF drive isn't broken, it reads CDs bit perfect, as your external CD drive with EAC does. You'll get 100% bit identical results; this is why they sound absolutely identical, no matter where they were ripped.


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BeitragVerfasst: 31.01.2008 22:54 
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gigi hat geschrieben:
If your HF drive isn't broken, it reads CDs bit perfect, as your external CD drive with EAC does. You'll get 100% bit identical results; this is why they sound absolutely identical, no matter where they were ripped.

In most cases correct Gigi, but in some cases (e.g. elder home-brewed CD's RW) the CD-quality is becomes so bad, that the build-in error-correction mechanism can't correct all-errors. CD-players differ in performance in this area.

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bernard991 hat geschrieben:
I did some listening tests yesterday with new music imported through the NW ...ripped with another good quality external CD drive & EAC
it was very much better than the results from using the HF drive


An interesting experiment might be to rip the same recording on the HF and on your other equipment to the same file format and do a bit wise comparison.

It might also be interesting to test both files using this: http://www.accuraterip.com/

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Vincent hat geschrieben:
An interesting experiment might be to rip the same recording on the HF and on your other equipment to the same file format and do a bit wise comparison.

Just go ahead :wink: Maybe there are some issues at the beginning and/or the end of the file (different number of silence-samples), but the rest will be identical.
For those who are interested: Hifidelio uses cdparanoia for ripping.


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Lots of people installed lots of software using a CD.
Incidents of this software failing us because the copy from CD to HD was not bit perfect are very rare.
Now if we rip a CD to our HD, do we have any reason to worry that this copy is not bit perfect? Is there any technical reason which explains why ‘software’ bits won’t topple over and “music” bits (sometimes) do?
Or is it just a matter of people applying a paradigm they know and think they understand understand, the turntable, to a device which works a bit different?

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BeitragVerfasst: 31.01.2008 23:51 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
Lots of people installed lots of software using a CD.
Incidents of this software failing us because the copy from CD to HD was not bit perfect are very rare.

Error correction on a CD ROM is technically different from the error correction on audio CDs. With a CD ROM it is vital that the data are reproduced correctly bit-by-bit. But at the time when the specifications for audio CD were established, there did not even exist PCs with CD drives. The provisions for error correction on audio CDs did not need to result in digitally perfect reproduction and only needed to reproduce the eventual analog sound correctly to the human ear. Missing data on audio CDs are interpolated by error correction and can very well be different from the original digital source.


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BeitragVerfasst: 01.02.2008 00:21 
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well I have to disagree completely with Gigi
the results of the test I did would be conclusive to anyone who has ears ...my CD transport reproduces BETTER sounding music in every way ...than the CD drive in the HF & replay by the HD to the music that was ripped in the HF & I have to say that my DAC is NOT broken .
question why do some CD transports sound better than others ?
as for paranoid mode default ripping in HF ...it seems to me that it is very fast for that mode ?


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