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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 02:06 
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A couple of days ago I loaded an album called “Live”
Today I loaded another album also called “Live” but by a different artist.
In the list of albums I found 1 entry “Live” with the songs of the two different albums ( ordered by track so 1 1,2 2,3 3 , etc and unfortunately you can not mark non-contiguous)
Normally the HF warns you when it detects an identical album but not in this case.
Like wise with 2 albums both called “Unplugged”
There seems to be a leak in the detection mechanism

Firmware: 2.9.3


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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 08:01 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
A couple of days ago I loaded an album called “Live”
Today I loaded another album also called “Live” but by a different artist.
In the list of albums I found 1 entry “Live” with the songs of the two different albums ( ordered by track so 1 1,2 2,3 3 , etc and unfortunately you can not mark non-contiguous)
Normally the HF warns you when it detects an identical album but not in this case.
Like wise with 2 albums both called “Unplugged”
There seems to be a leak in the detection mechanism

Firmware: 2.9.3


FW;2.3.8.

Yes, I can confirm that. It's exactly what I noticed when I started to load my HF weeks ago.


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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 09:18 
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This is working as designed. You do have a choice of selecting an artist first, then the albums or selecting an album name without filtering for the artist, since there are cases, where one album features different artists.

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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 09:24 
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In addition to Musikuss' answer: The warning you noticed is only given, when you import an album, that is identical in artist AND album title.
So "solve" this, I use the artist in addition to all "everyday-album titles" like "Unplugged" or "Greatest Hits". It becomes "Metallica unplugged" or "Greatest Hits of Schürzenjäger".

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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 11:37 
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Musikuss, if I understand you correctly, the point is "one album features different artists"
So the album title remains the same, a blunt check on duplicate album titles would mean one get a warning each time a new track is inserted. Would be highly inconvenient indeed.

I can imagine that some simple logic, checking for duplicate album titles only at the beginning of the loading process of a CD might cure this annoying behaviour.

If this is by design, why do I get tracks 1-1, 2-2, etc. instead of 1.1,1.2, etc. 2.1, 2.2?
This might also be a good candidate for a simple check as 1-1, 2-2 is probably not a desired outcome.


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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 13:01 
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No, the point is another one. Actuallly, two different ones:

1) Duplicate CD-Detection

Whenever you start recording a CD, the artist and album name (which are stored in the freedb for the whole CD!) are checked against the library. If matching tracks are found, the Hifidelio shows a message. Once.


2) Album list

If you select "Library->Albums", you will see a list of "album names", not really CDs. In this list, it is possible to have entries which share different artists, like samplers. Common album names like "live" or "Greatest Hits" will also share one entry. Within an album entry, the tracks are sorted by disc and track number.

If you want to differentiate the albums of two artists, that have the same name, you can browse the artists list first. Within each artist's albums list, the albums will be seperated from each other.


3) Example

Let's consider two CD's. The first one is "Greatest Hits" by the "Eurythmics", the second one is also called "Greatest Hits", but the artist is "Queen". After importing the first one, the second one will be detected as different from the first one, because the Artists differs. So, no message will be shown upon import.

Now, if you look up "Greatest Hits" within the "Albums" List, you will find both CD's within one album entry, sorted by track number. But if you look up "Queen" in the artists list, you will find a Greatest Hits entry, which in turn does only contain the Queen songs. And, of course, the Eurythmics artist does also have a Greatest Hits album entry, which does contain the tracks of the first CD only.

So, you have the choice of either looking up an album name while also considering the artist, or having listed all tracks sharing the same album name, regardless of the artist.

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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 15:49 
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If I understand correctly given the combination of album-title:

Live – Corrie en de Grote brokken
Live – Unknown

The both of them appear in the album list as 1 entry "Live"
Btw: is this new? I have the feeling this didn't happen in 2.3.8 or am I confusing album titles and tracks?

Logically if you start to play this album all tracks 1-1, 2-2, etc. are played.

If you make a selection by artist "Corrie etc." then of course you get the "live" album by Corrie.

Yesterday I loaded:
Unplugged – Unknown (should have been Clapton)
Unplugged – Unknown (should have been Adams)

So your trick using artist to discriminate between the 2 albums fails sometimes

What also happens to me loading a 4 CD set:
Early String Quartets – Alban Berg Quartet
Early String Quartets – Alban Berg Quartet
Early String Quartets – Alban Berg Quartet
Early String Quartets – Alban Berg Quartet

Do observe that in classical music you do have a lot of CD sets like 'the complete sonatas' so more than 1 CD with a common title

I admit that most of the time this doesn't happen because the people at freedb do something like adding (CD1) or so but then we are at the mercy of the reasonably unstructured freedb.

As a concept there is much to say for a uniform approach "what is spelled the same, is presented as 1 entry". I'm not in need of lists with multiple instances like 80 times Beethoven in the list of composers because I have 80 work by this composer. So it is a good design principle.
In case of albums I have some doubts.
"Greatest Hits" , "Live", etc are very common titles but does it make sense to have them as 1 entry while they are performed by different artist?.
"Early String Quartets": nothing wrong having this as 1 entry but there 8 sonatas on this set and I do mind getting 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2, 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-, 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4 and having a horrible editing job to do (hand picking each individual track because the mark option doesn't allow for gaps).

So nothing wrong with the concept but I wonder in case of album titles it really make sense to do so.
What about a system option "allow duplicate album titles" Y/N
What about appending tracks instead of interleaving?


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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 17:14 
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In case of multi-cd-sets you can edit the tag "cd-number", which will be sorted with a higher priority than "track-number". This way you will have the discs seperated from each other within one album, while keeping the original track numbers. This tag is not stored in the freedb, so you will have to edit it manually.

Likewise, you can change the album names in a way fragezeichen suggested.

All this shouldn't take longer than a couple of minutes, and you will have customized the way Hifidelio presents your collection to you.

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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 18:24 
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All the work arounds you mentioned are know to me
Do observe that one must do this before loading the next CD
I load 10 up to 30 CD's in a row before I start editing (haven't the time to watch each individual conversion. So every time I pass the HF I load a new CD)

What you are proposing is basically "see to it that you label your album manually in such a way that its title doesn't exist in freedb now and in the future before you load your next CD".
Not the best possible database design criteria I'm afraid.

Up to now I have loaded 400 CD's so still another 200 to go (if disk space allows, should have bought a 700 Gb Olive)
2 minutes per CD =1200=10 hours work.
In practice of course its much more as in case of classical music freedb most of the time returns
- inapt descriptions
- descriptions in different languages
- composer unknown (often the composer is under artist)
- different spelling for the same performers

So a hell of lot of editing is needed before you have a music collection of this size well structured.
I'm not pleased at all that the system could meddle with this structure without my consent.


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BeitragVerfasst: 22.03.2007 19:09 
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To the HF an album is not the same as a CD. In fact, the HF does not know CDs, just albums. An album is a collection songs with the same name in the 'album' tag. You can split or join albums, or you can sort songs in completely different albums, by editing the 'album' tag/metadata. If you import songs with the same name in the album tag, for the HF (and for your Olive) those songs belong to the same album.


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BeitragVerfasst: 23.03.2007 09:19 
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Vincent hat geschrieben:
All the work arounds you mentioned are know to me
Do observe that one must do this before loading the next CD


No, this is not obligatory. But it will yield the best results (see below)..

Zitat:
I load 10 up to 30 CD's in a row before I start editing (haven't the time to watch each individual conversion. So every time I pass the HF I load a new CD)


I understand, that you want the machine to do as much work as possible as fast as possible with as little interaction by you as possible. I believe, the Hifidelio does quite a good job, while still not being an artificial intelligence.

Zitat:
What you are proposing is basically "see to it that you label your album manually in such a way that its title doesn't exist in freedb now and in the future before you load your next CD".
Not the best possible database design criteria I'm afraid.


What database? The freedb? We didn't design the freedb, we could have designed a much better cd database, that's true. But it wouldn't have had any entries, so we have to cope with what the freedb is.

If you change tags before importing, the Hifidelio will store that meta data in its own local additional version of the freedb. This way, it will recognize the CD the next time you insert it and show your edited titles. This is an additional benefit of customizing the tags before import.

Zitat:
Up to now I have loaded 400 CD's so still another 200 to go (if disk space allows, should have bought a 700 Gb Olive)
2 minutes per CD =1200=10 hours work.
In practice of course its much more as in case of classical music freedb most of the time returns
- inapt descriptions
- descriptions in different languages
- composer unknown (often the composer is under artist)
- different spelling for the same performers

So a hell of lot of editing is needed before you have a music collection of this size well structured.
I'm not pleased at all that the system could meddle with this structure without my consent.


We are aware, that the quality of the freedb is far away from perfect, and that does not only relate to the quality of the data, but to the quality of the underlyiing technology, as well. But then again, it's free! And it keeps you from entering most of the data manually. The data is entered by normal people like you (I wouldn't call myself normal ;)).

And by the way: Have you tried different versions of the same entry by repeatedly pressing "Read CD-Info"? This cycles through multiple entries, if any exist. Sometimes this leads to better results, varying your mileage.

The Hifidelio user interface and software design has been considered quite carefully to achieve 2 goals:
- being easy to understand by non-technical users
- while at the same time being flexible enough for most needs of the so-called "power-users".
By editing the tags you can heavily customize the behaviour. This seems quite some work on first sight, but in relation to the sheer mass of information and music, it isn't really.

And think about this: There are people out there, who never insert a single CD into the drive, but feed the Hifidelio with files only. Tons of them. Structured or completely unrelated to each other. The Hifidelio has to work just as well with that. And since there are no CD's involved, there is also no freedb involved and all the Hifidelio has to base on, are tags. So we considered it the smallest common denominator and consequently based all its basic functionality on those tags. This is the true source of its power.

You didn't buy your stereo and all of your CD's in one go, but the collection grew over time. Take a little time to move it to the Hifidelio and let it grow slower. Don't expect the machine to serve you perfectly, people are too different for that, anyway. This will make your experience much more enjoyable.

What exactly do you want the Hifidelio do differently?

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BeitragVerfasst: 23.03.2007 17:04 
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In the past I also missed the detection of duplicate album names. See here for the related discussion (in German).

It is already possible to detect an attempt to import a CD, which has already been imported and to show a warning about it.

It should also be possible to show a warning message accordingly, after it has been determined by the software, that a CD has been entered the 1st time (in order to import it) and the freedb lookup returns an album name, which already exists in the library.

I used the terms CD and album intentionally following the above explanation by RonaldPR.

In my opinion this is rather a request for an enhancement than a bug report.
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BeitragVerfasst: 23.03.2007 23:28 
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Musikuss thanks for the elaborated reply.
It makes matter much more clear to me.

It took a while before I understand what you proposed.
I have the HF on autoimport
What you propose is:
- insert the CD
- edit the tags
- import

I thought a CD has to be imported first before one could edit it (where is “The rough guide to the Hifidelio”?)
"Read CD-Info": thanks for the tip (where is….)

I’m not in need of a AI system, I think this behaviour could easily be made more acceptable with some simple logic.

When loading a CD:
if title and artist are already on the HF display the current warning message but INCLUDE the title of the existing album in this message. If you have CD behaviour import=on you don’t see the title on the display.

If title is already on the HF but artist is different (The Greatest Hits, The String Quartets)
Find highest disk number given this title
Import new CD with disk number +1 (so you don’t get the infamous 1-1-1-1 but 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4)
If one don’t like the result one can now simply split the album by marking a range.

Additional wishes:
Options to sort especially albums by date/time entered ( highly convenient after a bulk load)
Options to select by file type ( Which ones are not converted, which ones have a format acceptable for my mp3 player, etc)

Don’t hide options like import. I went through to whole menu structure to find it until I conjectured op that there should be something in the import directory before this option is visible. Do observe that after using the maintenance option the file maintenance.txt is there so it is suddenly becomes visible while there is nothing to import.
Make all these options visible by default and on activate add an informational text in case the options is not working (no music in import folder). This gives the user a better cue about what to do.
Make the music folder visible by default (with a 400Gb drive this is needed for a backup)
Allow for backup from the HF over the network to a NAS or any other device using UNC notation. (a sync would also be great)

Der beobachtete Effekt ist möglich. Und ich weiß dass es in die nächste Version kommt.

Thanks Musikuss

(Ever met a normal guy? Did you like it?)


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BeitragVerfasst: 23.03.2007 23:49 
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Vincent, we appreciate your comment, but please correct your message: Artist is Artist, Album is Album and Titile is Title. Sometimes Genre is Genre too...

Best regards, Bergi

ps. Je vais suprimer tous les messages qui ne sont plus neccessaires. ;-)

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BeitragVerfasst: 24.03.2007 00:36 
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Sorry Bergi but I don't understand.
I couldn’t find any tit or any tile or the combination of the two in my post
But I might be a bit lecdystic
Could you be more specific?

English is the lingua franca of this world

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